Conversation with Gautam Sinha of Nappa Dori
Gautam Sinha is the founder of the New Delhi-based ‘leather and thread’ brand, Nappa Dori. It was launched in 2010 after Sinha had a chance encounter with leather while working for a Scandinavian client and crafted a line of belts. Nappa Dori is a luxury brand that introduced the vintage, wanderlust-inspired travel goods like colourful trunks that replaced the ubiquitous backpack. Sinha also added Cafe Dori to his leather venture that enhances the experience of being a part of the brand.
“I didn’t choose leather; leather chose me in a way. I had no big plans to work with leather design. I told you, it was just survival. I didn’t have money, didn’t know what to do, and someone asked me to make some leather belts. I agreed to do it. ”
All images were taken at Nappa Dori Dhanmill Compound by Sayali Goyal
S: Let’s start from the beginning, 8–9 years ago, when Nappa Dori was launched. There weren’t a lot of experiential retails back then, especially in something that was not clothing, so could you begin with the initial mind-set you had, how you started and conceptualized this? What were the initial challenges in creating a concept store? Why did you think people would move from Samsonite and the others in the existing market to leather?
ND: Honestly, this wasn’t planned. The first store happened in 2010. Here in India, organized retail doesn’t really exist the way it exists in the West. It’s at like 7–9%and it stages about 94%. So, even if you had a brand, where would you go and where would you stock? In India, there weren’t enough outlets for a brand to actually become a brand. So people had to end up having their own stores. Back then, it wasn’t so much about creating a concept store or something wonderful; the whole point was just to survive, to be honest. But over the last 9 years it’s all obviously evolved to something much bigger. And, yeah, in terms of our stores and how we have evolved as a brand, we have done things a lot differently than what the usual, conventional brands do, and this has worked for us. There are gambles and there are risks that you end up taking, but these are calculated risks. And I think that the country is mature enough to accept them.
S: But do you think it was mature enough in 2010? You introduced yourselves as a luggage brand, and your trunks suddenly became ‘the thing’. How do you think that shift happened? Who were your early adapters, and were there any challenges in terms of the mind-shift?
ND: When I started off, the whole point was doing products that made sense to me. I think ignorance is bliss, and I’m not a business person. I was completely involved in the creative aspect of it. I never really thought who the customer would be (which is a rather stupid thing to do).
S: It’s actually a great thing to do!
ND: And yeah, hence ignorance is bliss, because certain things that I’ve done have been out of complete and sheer passion, and they’ve fortunately worked for me. That’s the way I like working.
The initial customers were obviously expats. I had a really strong expat clientele for the first 2–3 years. I also had well-travelled Indians who were into design, who didn’t really have an issue in terms of the price points, and accepted it the way it was supposed to be. If this acceptance wasn’t there, I don’t think I would have been able to create a brand. So I think the market was already evolved. And it’s wrong to say that the new generation of India was not open-minded or design-savvy. It’s not true.
S: 2010 was the year that I had returned to India after my studies in London. I remember feeling really happy and excited because my first office was in Hauz Khas, and that’s the neighbourhood you were in. Even now I love taking my customers for shopping to Nappa Dori. And when you say it comes from the heart, you can always sense it. It’s almost like a cult brand, I would say, because after Nappa Dori I saw many experiment with design and concept stores. You’re always up to something new, and right now I’m thinking especially of the café.
ND: Yeah, this is a new phase of Nappa Dori.
S: So what do you think is the sweet point between traditional and contemporary? Going back to your trunks, it’s a very Indian, old, heritage concept that you made into a fashion statement. I see ikkats in your bags -- you’ve tried to bring in that little Indian nostalgia to it. Is that your sensibility? Do you look back into old, Indian leather craftsmanship or do you also sort of get inspired from other traditions?
ND: See, we are an Indian brand, so the materials that we use are very much Indian. However, I don’t think that in order to be an Indian brand, you need to put elephants and camels on things.
S: Not at all.
ND: As a country, we are so rich in our culture, in our crafts. We try to showcase how India is in little nuances, and this can express itself in the way in which the products are made, in the way in which we use our material, etc. That’s what we try to do – we try to have the Indianness, but with an international palette. I was really, really particular about creating things which could appeal to everyone and not to just one demographic. I don’t want to be identified as an Indian brand where things are so Indian that it does not blend into the world of a world traveller. i want to create things that can be loved and accepted globally. That’s really important, because it is a global market; one can’t be only a country-centric brand. I’m not! And I really wanted to portray that in the type of products that came out of Nappa Dori.
S: It seems like yours is a very inward-looking brand. You began your conversation saying that you just wanted to do things from the heart. On your Instagram page, I see a lot of posts on synchronicity – you keep posting about 11:11 – so it seems like you have this creative and sort of spiritual side to you. How do you think Nappa Dori has evolved as a brand in terms of spirit, from when it started to what it is now, and where it is headed?
ND: Well, that’s my own personal take of things; what I think or believe doesn’t really reflect in the way I work.
S: Okay, so you think that these two things are separate?
ND: In terms of business, yes. In terms of creative energies, no, obviously not. Because I am my brand. I don’t think there would ever be a moment when they’re two separate things. I have also evolved so much as a person over the past 9 years, and that has to reflect in the way the brand is. I travel a lot and get inspired by my travels. I get inspired by the things that surround me constantly. They say, right, that you are the sum of the five people who constantly surround you? I kind of believe in this, that as a creator, if you surround yourself with things that enrich you as a person, it will reflect in the stuff you make and design. So yeah, I think it is all interwoven.
S: So that was my question, you know. Nappa Dori has grown as a brand from what it was 9 years ago to what it is now. Is there anything tangible that wasn’t there then, but is there now, because you have grown as a person, creatively? I am just talking about creative energy here. Did you, for example, have this vision of having so many concept stores, and a café?
ND: Not at all. When I started off I didn’t even know what I was doing. 9 years back it was just a basic means to an end, and for business. There was no money in the bank.
S: Really! I don’t believe that.
ND: But it’s true. I started off with about 2–2.5 lakh rupees. I was 30–31, so it was a pretty late start, just to survive and make ends meet. I told myself that I’ll start something and see if it works. If it doesn’t, I’d go get a job somewhere. There was no concrete plan of making Nappa Dori into this big brand.
But over the last 9 years it has grown, it has been accepted, it’s evolved as a brand. And I feel blessed about wherever this is right now and where it’s going – though I still don’t know where it’s going. I still don’t believe that we are a massive brand; I just get to hear it from people.
S: That’s the best way.
ND: For me it’s still like we are just surviving, still trying to make ends meet. Also, we are self-funded. Everything that we make goes into the brand.
S: What part of it excites you the most? Is it the retail planning, the product design, the travel that it involves…what the most exciting thing for you?
ND: My team will definitely say that it’s me designing the stores. That’s where my passion lies. I love designing spaces that live and breathe. We have never hired interior designers; all that you see around you right now is done by me.
That’s actually something that we all love doing as a team, and it’s always worked for us. When you see a space that’s conducive to someone coming in and sitting and spending 4–5 hours, it just feels right. So that’s the one thing that excites me, someone using my space and spending time there.
S: Lots of creative people sit here and work, so the energy is very good.
ND: Yeah, I think it’s become kind of a hub for people who want to be in a space that breathes a certain amount of creativity.
S: Right. So which travels have inspired you the most? Were there certain travels that were infused with serendipity, where you felt like you had that inspiration boom?
ND: All my travels. I won’t point out one. I do travel a lot, and I feel that it’s my way of disengaging with what I do constantly. But again, people who know me would say that I never disengage from things. Because when I’m travelling, I’m just scouting around, looking at things, observing people, observing things happening, and getting inspired by everything around me. Design is everywhere, right? I love going to cities and exploring. I don’t usually go to the museums.
S: I didn’t think you would say that.
ND: I don’t go to touristy spots or museums.
S: Museums can be inspiring.
ND: Yeah, I know, but I don’t have that kind of patience. I can’t sit still. I can’t fathom how people can spend 5 hours in a museum, just looking at a painting. If I go, I would see it and move on. What I do love is framing things in my head, which is more my way of capturing moments. This reflects in the kind of photography that I do, it reflects in the kind of Instagram images that I create or curate. And that’s more meaningful to me than going to a museum, looking at a Monet and saying ‘wow’. Yes, it is wow, but then we move on, right.
S: In the process of travelling and observing things, do you keep a journal or a sketchbook, or make lists? How do you categorize and conceptualize things, how do you translate what you see into what you create? What’s your creative process like? Do you take notes?
ND: If you see my phone right now, it has about 26000 pictures. I’m a very visual person. Through photography, I visually capture moments and things that inspire me. It can be someone walking on the street, a nice window or a nice building, or whatever it might be. I love coming back, scrolling through the images and saying, ‘Oh, I was there,’ or ‘That was really cool!’ or, ‘Let’s do something around that.’ I write, but my writing is not a part of my work. It’s more at the level of personal venting.
S: But that’s also actually channelizing your thoughts…
ND: Yes, but those are more like memoirs of how my life is going. Sometimes I just need to discharge and get certain things out of my head. Other than that, I’m mostly a visual person. I love clicking pictures. It’s not like clicking randomly though; every picture has to be framed in a certain way. You won’t see a picture on my phone which is not framed well. I think that reflects in the kind of products I do, how structured they are, and it’s also become the DNA of the brand in a way. Visually, it has to be reflective of how I had imagined it to be.
S: That’s very interesting. I also just wanted to get a sense of how you as a design thinker, as a creative entrepreneur, think of what’s happening in India right now? At least in the past 5–6 years, there’s been a lot of travel–meets–design; some people are letting it out through their experiences, some people are getting inspired by travel, some people are reflecting it in their content marketing. Even a brand like Good Earth, for example, is always inspired by a place. There is always a sense of place. People have suddenly become very sensitized to material culture. Is it an exciting time in India right now -- what do you think? So many Indians are migrating back to India, and most of these really cool brands are all expat or half–expat brands. There’s this shift that’s happening. What are your thoughts about that?
ND: Well, according to me, this is the golden age of design in India. There’s so much creativity happening here. To give you an example, I was in Lisbon recently with two of my close friends. We loved the city, the architecture and everything. But design-wise, it’s so not there. And we found ourselves thinking, India is so ahead! India is so ahead in design. It is shocking. The problem with India is that we still haven’t penetrated the international market in the way that we should have. That’ll happen in the next 5–10 years – I won’t even say 10 years -- that’s a long time. In the next 5–6 years, you’ll see a massive movement of Indian brands going out into the world. It’s been brewing for so long, it’s bound to happen. We have taken the first step, I feel, with our store in Central London, bang in the middle of everything. A lot of people questioned this decision. They asked why I was doing it, if I wanted to sustain myself…
S: Why not. It makes me proud!
ND: It’s difficult. Retail is dying in London, and High Street’s dead, da da da… It’s true; High Street is dead, and a lot of big closures are happening. But I just felt that it was the right time for us.
S: People may not walk so much into the Zaras of the world. But I see your brand as a concept store – and people do walk into concept stores.
ND: As an indie brand, it is really important for the brand to sustain first. I think we are a mixed bag of a lot of things. We don’t call ourselves a leather goods company. We are a leather goods company, but now we have evolved into a lifestyle brand. We do leather goods but they reflect in a lot of different categories. It may be stationery, or home décor, or objects.
S: Beautiful objects.
ND: And then we do fashion accessories, which are our bread and butter. I think we do many different things, but they all have the same DNA, which kind of works for us. Along with this, we are now offering chai and coffee. In Central London we are offering masala chai in kulhars -- actual clay kulhars -- which is so fascinating for a Western person or a European.
S: Or even for Indians living abroad.
ND: Yeah, to experience something disposable, not of paper, but made of actual earth, in which you can have your tea! It’s come from the earth and goes back there, nor does it take time to get decomposed. A lot of people don’t throw it. They ask us if we can rinse it and give it to them. Then they take it back home and re-use it.
S: How wonderful.
ND: Things like that are so nice to see. That’s creating Indian culture over there. That’s showing you how India was so far ahead in terms of its design culture. We were so sustainable in our actual basic functionality from the very beginning, and lost it to modernization and in following the West. And now the West is looking at the East and trying to be sustainable.
S: Why did you particularly select London? You also had something in the Maldives, right?
ND: We set up our first flagship store in London because it just made sense. There’s so much history here, and a massive knowledge bank which, in a way, knows how India is and how India functions. There’s a pre-existing catchment over here.
S: Yes, there’s a connection.
ND: There’s so much connect over here. And it’s an English-speaking nation. A lot of people don’t attach importance to this, but it’s a really important consideration for a small Indian brand. English comes naturally to us and helps so much in migrating a business. These were the critical things, the practical points that I looked into. I can’t go and open a store in Denmark; I don’t know anything about the place generally or in terms of legalities. I can hire the right people but this being a self-funded brand, I can’t have a legal team everywhere. So you need to think what’s more sustainable for you. And also, it’s one of the key cities of the world, one of the fashion capitals, so why not? It’s a good time to be in London.
S: Yeah. So I’m repeatedly asking about ‘Made in India’ because, when it comes to leather craftsmanship, people go to Italy, and there are so many luxury brands from France as well. When people see leather goods from India, made in India, what do they say? What is your feeling about leather goods ‘Made in India’ and being retailed from London?
ND: They actually love it. The response I’ve got is so overwhelming and so heartwarming!
S: Are they surprised? Do they know about the craft?
ND: Yes, they’re caught by surprise, because most of them think that we are an Italian or a Japanese brand, because our name gives them that impression. And when they get to know that we are Indian, there’s a certain awe or shock that changes suddenly into a kind of ecstasy that, “oh wow, it’s from India”. India has such a strong connect to quality that as soon as you say it’s an Indian brand, the expectation of quality goes up. People immediately start thinking that it’s handcrafted, it’s Indian, it’s high on quality. That doesn’t happen when you’re a Chinese brand, or any other brand. India still has that strong foothold in handcrafted products with a certain assurance of quality. And this works really well. I don’t know why Indian brands haven’t been able to go out and tell their story properly. I think that we as a country, don’t have patience. You can see the adverse effects of this kind of mindset with the type of brands we end up creating and then shutting. And yet, in our mindset, we are still a trading nation. So we like creating for the masses, for the West. Try and name one store in London where you won’t find a product that is made in India. It’s impossible to find one. Everything is made in India. So why aren’t we celebrating this as an Indian brand? Why are the Western brands celebrating it? I don’t get it.
S: Can you name a couple of brands that are sort of in this space? Brands which realise the value of ‘Made in India’, want to take it to the West, and are very authentic in what they’re creating? People in the design space in India who have the same kind of vision as you, of taking ‘Made in India’ to the West, even if they haven’t done it already?
ND: Look at Péro. She’s in 27–28 countries and sells everywhere. She’s a true example of ‘Made in India’, of Indian fabric and Indian craft. She’s already gone places. She doesn’t have a store everywhere, but that doesn’t matter. A store is a completely different ballgame; it depends on how you manage everything and kind of makes your foothold a lot stronger…There are so many similar brands out there.
S: Any brand that speaks to you?
ND: Well, look at Good Earth. That’s the best example. Nicobar’s trying; I think they’ll be there soon. Bodice, and Péro. She is in some of the key department stores in the world. She is doing phenomenal work. There are so many, if I really start digging. That’s what I’m saying. Wait for another 5 years and see what happens. It’s going to be crazy.
S: What are some of the interesting things that you’re doing for storytelling -- like in-store experiences in London, or live demonstrations -- to tell people about craftsmanship? Are you planning something for the London Design Week?
ND: I haven’t planned anything for the Design Week yet. Storytelling and narrating our brand story is something very important for us. When you visit the store, you’ll see it. It’s there, and it’s an unmistakable part of the store. We haven’t tried to preach anything about India to anyone. But it’s important to tell people where the products are coming from, what goes into it, and how proud we are. So these are all reflected in the type of display we do and how we explain the brand -- how we explain the masala chai, for instance – and how we make the masala chai! It’s handmade with ground ginger and everything happens in front of the customer. It takes about 5–10 minutes to make.
S: How exciting!
ND: So you have to wait, you have to be patient. It’s not instant coffee.
S: So you mentioned that sustainability-wise, India was always a country that came with slow methods of creating things, and then we adopted the Western way of doing things. Has Nappa Dori consciously adapted any methods to be ecologically sustainable, or been conscious about, say, fair trade, or do any of these things speak to you? You can’t be completely sustainable, I guess.
ND: See, that’s one thing even I’m trying to rejig. I won’t call us sustainable because we are in a country where sustainability doesn’t get monetised. It’s as simple as that. I have to survive. I’m in India as a brand and I need to make products that sell. Are we conscious of the need for sustainability? Yes, we are. I don’t deny the fact that we need to take major steps towards it. Now that we’re in London, we have to make ourselves stronger in this regard because out here, the movements are a lot stronger.. Out here, we need to be a product and price–sensitive market. Out there it’s a product and price–sensitive–in–a–sustainable–manner–market, which is a lot more evolved. But they are willing to pay the price. In India, they’re not. So how do you tackle this? Do we do separate lines for this? Do we create different product categories? This was a debate that happened between me and my team recently about how to rejig ourselves in a way that we are conducive to both markets. But eventually we came to a decision that overall, as a brand, we need to be walking towards sustainability, no matter which country we are in. And that’ll take time. Are we sustainable? Yes, we are; in a lot of ways we do a lot of things that are right. We have eco-leather, which doesn’t take chrome (chrome is a massive factor in terms of environmental degradation); we use vegetable dyes. These are things that we’ve been doing since the very beginning. Can we keep buying eco-leather in India and selling products? We can’t; the cost is phenomenal. If I suddenly tell a customer who has been buying bags for Rs.9000, that the same bag now costs Rs.16000, they’ll ask why. And if I tell them it’s eco-friendly, they’ll not care! So how do we work to get that price point down and be sustainable is something that we’re trying to work on. I’ve told my team not to look at it as a problem to be resolved today. We’ve decided to work towards it, and in the next 5–6 years we’ll try and get to a level where we’re 80% sustainable.
S: I don’t think there is anything like 100% sustainable, actually.
ND: That can never happen. No company in the world can claim to be 100% sustainable. They’re either making a really good marketing jig, or making a fool of you, and that’s about it.
S: Mostly it is that.
ND: Most of them are. And vegan leather is bullshit. Some of that is more harmful than leather, and doesn’t get decomposed. It’s not durable also. In time, it’s something that will damage the environment even more. Natural leather gets decomposed.
S: Also like consumerism. Something that’s pure and beautiful, like leather, I probably will preserve it for generations.
ND: It builds character. There’s a certain amount of character-building in an old trunk, or a leather bag that you might have from your grandma’s time. I don’t think that character can last in a piece of vegan leather.
S: I completely agree. But why leather? I’m curious. Why did you pick leather? You studied at NIFT, right?
ND: That place didn’t teach me anything. I don’t even have a degree from NIFT, so let’s not even go there.
I didn’t choose leather; leather chose me in a way. I had no big plans to work with leather design. I told you, it was just survival. I didn’t have money, didn’t know what to do, and someone asked me to make some leather belts. I agreed to do it. I don’t know anything about leather but I told myself that I would try. That was actually the first time ever that I worked with leather without knowing about the material. I went to Karol Bagh and tried to figure it out. I bought the leather, fulfilled that order, and ended up making a bit of money. That’s when my love for leather started, because I started experiencing how versatile it was, the range of things that could be made out of it, and it was zero-waste, because I could put every inch of it to some use. We do so many upcycled leather products at Nappa Dori.
S: That’s a great way to practise sustainability.
ND: Yeah, we don’t talk about it much, but we do pencil cap holders, wire clips – they’re all upcycled. Many people are better at marketing and broadcasting this aspect of it, and have a better pitch -- we need to start doing this as well -- but we might already be more sustainable than we give ourselves credit for!
S: But I think the intelligent audiences already get it.
ND: They do.
S: So a lot of micro-cultural businesses have started collaborating now, and among others, you have collaborated with Qatar. Are they any interesting collaborations coming up, something you would want to talk about? Or about the importance of collaboration -- why you think one should collaborate.
ND: Collaborations are difficult and I’m not a big fan. I feel that people use it too loosely. We are very particular. We only collaborate with brands that take us to a different level and challenge us.
We aim for two good key collaborations yearly, not more than that. We might do associations where it helps both brands. But that’s not collaboration -- it’s different. We have collaborated with Qatar, which has been one of our biggest, with 1.5 million kits with ‘Nappa Dori’ written on them. It’s a massive collaboration and it’s going to the right audience. Every business and first class traveller is getting a piece of Nappa Dori – you can’t ask for better marketing than that.
S: Are these collaborations mostly based on numbers, or is it more because your heart tells you that you are in sync?
ND: It has to be a mix of everything. It has to be commercially viable – that’s the bottom line. Secondly, it has to be with a brand that reflects your own DNA. We have worked with Chivas, where there’s leather and whisky; the way whisky is distilled and the way leather ages. All these narratives and all the storytelling are really important for us in any collaboration. We’ll never do a collaboration with a popcorn-making company, for instance. It has to work for both, and show the depth of both the brands. Our collaboration with Chivas is a great example.
S: My last question to you is, where do you see Nappa Dori going in the next 5 years?
ND: I don’t know where it’s headed in the next 2 months, and you’re asking about 5 years! I never planned Nappa Dori in such a way. Things happen. Good things keep happening and taking us forward -- in small steps or major leaps – like this cafe. This was the biggest risk we ever took; we put all our money in it. And everyone asked us why we were doing a café. People predicted that it was going to be a major disaster because we were not an F&B company. But I wanted it badly. I wanted to create a space where someone could come and enjoy a good cup of coffee, or have breakfast. If you look, 90% of the people right now are expats who’ve come for breakfast. Delhiites don’t go out in the mornings, which seems quite shocking to me.
S: We really need more breakfast places!
ND: This café was one of the biggest risks we took in a completely unknown area. It’s not a retail place, it’s a warehouse. And suddenly we’ve become an anchor place over here.
S: And so much has developed around it.
ND: And because we were here, now people want to be around it, like a design spot.
And honestly, we don’t know where we’re going to go in the next 5 years.
S: Are there any more international stores coming up?
ND: Hopefully. Things look positive. It’s not been a complete disaster. We’re getting a massively strong response from the West, and I believe that we have the capacity to do a lot more. India is always a key market and we’ll always be here. But I think it’s time to show the world what Indian brands are about, and we’ll focus on that.